Is the Line Between CS and Sales Disappearing? ft. Jon Johnson (Gainsight)

The CSM job description is being rewritten. Commercial instincts, strategic thinking, technical fluency, and AI are all reshaping what it takes to succeed in Customer Success (CS). For CSMs wondering where they fit into that future, the next 18 months are your make-or-break moment.

In this episode of [Un]Churned, former co-host and Gainsight Strategic Principal CSM Jon Johnson reunites with host Josh Schachter for “216. Why Every CSM Needs Commercial Skills in the Next 18 Months.” They discuss why CSMs need to get closer to revenue, how AI is changing the day-to-day role and the future of enterprise SaaS, and why human relationships still matter as technology takes on more of the work.

---

Listen on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Gainsight.com.

Subscribe now and get the [Un]Churned take straight to your inbox.

---

🎯 The [Un]Churned Take: The Case for Accountability Over Attribution

A customer renews. Sales points to the relationship they built. Product points to the features customers love. CS points to adoption, engagement, and all the work that went into keeping the account healthy.

Everyone contributed. Everyone wants credit.

On this week’s episode of Un]Churned, “216. Why Every CSM Needs Commercial Skills in the Next 18 Months,” Josh Schachter and former co-host Jon Johnson, now a Strategic Principal CSM at Gainsight, revisit the industry’s long-running debate about commercial ownership.

After 15 years in Customer Success, Jon’s eager to see CSMs take greater responsibility for revenue, and with the shift to commercial and outcomes-based monetization, it’s closer than ever. According to Bloomberg, traditional subscription models, which currently make up 60% of software pricing, could fall to just 30% in the next decade. Meanwhile, outcome-based pricing is expected to rise from 10% to 60%.

As revenue becomes increasingly tied to customer outcomes, CS can stop defending its contribution and start owning its commercial impact.

Moving Beyond Individual Credit

A customer’s decision to renew is influenced by plenty of factors, many of which fall outside a post-sales team’s control. With so many moving parts, drawing a straight line between CS activity and revenue outcomes can be difficult.

If CS is responsible for managing a portfolio of revenue, its value comes from how effectively it manages that business over time. Individual wins and losses are part of the picture, but they aren’t the whole story.

“Whether it’s the CSM did a really good job or the market grew, the seat is the value and the management of that seat is the thing that you’re bringing in.”

^{-Jon Johnson, Gainsight}

You could spend hours trying to calculate how much of a renewal CS influenced, only to end up debating percentages that nobody can confidently prove. Meanwhile, the rest of the business is looking at the number.

Being treated as a commercial function means being comfortable being evaluated like one. That means taking responsibility for portfolio performance and being able to explain the decisions, actions, and circumstances behind the results.

Telling a Different Story Through Accountability

Outcome-based pricing gives CS teams a clearer path to draw that thick, bold line in Sharpie from their efforts to revenue. When customers pay for results, the work of helping them achieve those results becomes directly connected to the business’s bottom line.

It also creates an opportunity to rethink the relationship between CS and Sales. Both teams have a stake in customer growth, but their strengths and responsibilities can complement each other in new ways.

“I’ve got incredible account executives. But also, I want them into the greenfield. That’s the most important thing for them to do … And if they’re spending all their time on my lawn, their lawn’s not going to get the water that it needs.”

^{—Jon Johnson, Gainsight}

It’s really a whole new way to divide and conquer shared growth efforts. Sales can focus on bringing in new business and opening doors to new opportunities, while CS takes greater commercial ownership of the customers already in the portfolio.

With outcome-based pricing, that ownership connects more directly to revenue. CS can use its understanding of customer goals, adoption, and realized value to identify growth opportunities, while Sales brings its commercial expertise to the opportunities that need it.

The companies that get this right will turn CS and Sales into a much more powerful growth engine.

A Bigger Role in Revenue Comes With a Bigger Spotlight

Peter Parker’s uncle once said, “With more growth power comes more commercial responsibility.” Or something like that.

As CS moves closer to the bottom line, it has a bigger opportunity to show executives its impact on revenue. And with that opportunity comes higher expectations for how we measure success.

“You need a spotlight on you occasionally … so that people can see … the actual effort and the outcomes that you’re tracking. And it can’t just be a Kanban board hidden behind a login that nobody can see.”

^{—Jon Johnson, Gainsight}

That spotlight needs to illuminate more than just the final revenue number. A CSM who protects a struggling account from churn may have delivered just as much value as one whose portfolio grew because of favorable market conditions. Understanding the work behind those outcomes helps leaders recognize strong performance and identify where teams need more support.

The next chapter of CS will be defined by the revenue we’re willing to own, not the credit we’re able to claim.

---

🎧 Listen for These Moments

Josh says Jon was always the fan-favorite [Un]Churned co-host. We’ll let you be the judge. Catch their reunion and hear what else they had to say about:

• Why Jon doesn’t attend every customer meeting anymore: AI helps him stay informed across complex enterprise accounts while spending more time on higher-value conversations.

• The future of headless SaaS: Jon challenges the idea that most enterprise software will become headless within 18 months, pointing to the realities of security, governance, and large-scale organizational change.

• The person behind the business outcome: Jon shares why understanding what makes an individual stakeholder feel successful remains central to building trust, even as AI takes on more work.

---

🔎 Where to Find the Speakers

• Jon Johnson — LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonwilliamjohnson/

• Josh Schachter — LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jschachter/

📎 Referenced in This Episode

• Claude — Jon shares how he uses Claude to prioritize his work, catch missed emails, and manage information across his accounts.

• Notion — The shared meeting notes Jon uses to stay informed on customer calls.

• Suno — The AI music-generation platform that sparks a discussion about creativity, authenticity, and Jon’s complicated relationship with generative AI.

• OpenAI — Mentioned during the discussion about headless SaaS and accessing software capabilities through AI tools.

• Salesforce — Referenced as another environment where users could access customer information in a headless SaaS future.

• Pulse Europe — Josh and Jon reminisce about their experiences at Pulse Europe, including Jon’s enthusiastic laughter from the front row.

• Wild Coast — Jon’s music project, which Josh enthusiastically endorses 😉

---

Wrapping Up

If there's one thing this reunion makes clear, it's that the future of CS is changing fast, but the people behind it still have plenty of stories to tell.

See you next week 🧠